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INTERVIEW with a VEGAN

It is time for Mankind to switch from the "language of squares" to the "language of rhomb"

INTERVIEW
with Israel Gelfand and Tatiana V. Gelfand
for the of Animal Rights Center "VITA"
http://www.vita.org.ru/english/animalrights/gelfand.htm

Questions prepared by Irina Novozhilova and Konstantin Sabinin (from VITA)
Interview written by Tatiana V. Gelfand (July 2008)

VITA Good afternoon, dear to our vegan hearts Israel Moiseevich and Tatiana!
In Russia, it is not yet known that you are vegans, yet the information about this and your example can be "contagious" for many people -- not only for those who know and remember you well but also for other people who do not yet know much about the issue.
The example of great people always influences the choice of many…
We would like to have an interview with you and Tatiana about this topic, and we are sending you our questions.
Israel As a rule I do not give interviews. Better ask my Tatiana; she understands these topics well.
Tatiana Let me ask Israel your questions, and I will write down all his answers. I will also share my impressions about Israel and some of my own thoughts.
VITA We know that both you and your spouse-Tatiana, are vegans. Who was the first in your family to think about this issue and how have you arrived to this decision?
Israel I thought about this long ago.
Tatiana I am sure that everyone thinks about why we eat animals, and we come up with this question even in childhood. I remember well that when I was little I asked my parents about this and received the standard answer for that time: "because people are used to doing it." At about the age of 15, I wanted to "rebel" and tried nutrition according to Paul Bragg, Norman Walker, etc. I felt great but nevertheless, unfortunately, could not resist at that time the social pressure. I regret this very much!
Our family story of the transition to veganism is the following. In the US we received mailings from "PETA" (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) with descriptions of the horrors of factory farms. Israel said that one day people will stop eating animals once and for all. Feeling his support, I started going back to my adolescent wish "not to eat carcasses". First, I limited it to only fish and was buying it less and less often. Possibly our taste started to change because my family members started avoiding fish, saying, "I don't feel like eating it right now".
And then one day at the dinner Israel said that "he is no longer going to eat animals because eating them is wrong". To those who know him well, it would be clear that his decision was final.
VITA How long ago did this happen and how did you become vegans?
Tatiana We became vegetarians in about 1994. This transition was not much noticeable for us and was so natural that it did not seem at all like we were "giving up something" which was a necessity.
On the other hand, our transition to veganism was very essential. This time I was the one to announce it, after I met animal rights activists who were vegans, at an AR Conference in 2000. This changed my life, and became a "before and after" experience.
It became clear to me that I too really wanted to help the animals and our planet in general. Within a few months, I found vegan substitutes for milk products - it was difficult for me to drop yogurt and butter right away. First, Israel continued eating milk products, especially aged cheese but gradually, within about a year, he stopped consuming them too.
VITA Tatiana, you said that veganism became a "before and after" experience for you. Could you, please, explain what you mean?
Тatiana When I became a vegan I felt like a "load dropped off my shoulders", this was the load of hypocrisy. According to Israel, he felt the same way. In fact, many vegans share the same experience. I started feeling some kind of lightness inside as if I felt inner peace for the first time in my life. I felt that I could now look at myself in the mirror without shame.
VITA Israel Moiseevich, what was the actual starting point for you?
Israel The first conscious starting point was my dear wife-Tanya, the mother of my daughter. This decision came gradually.
VITA What finally convinced you of this decision?
Israel I do not understand.
Тatiana We had a whole philosophical dialogue (see below) in response to this question. I want to note that the geometrical construction mentioned there is not essential by itself and is not explained. It is enough to consider it as a metaphor.

Tatiana. Can you tell me why you stopped eating animals in 1994?
Israel (Smiling) Who knows what a young man has in his head?
Tatiana. Does this mean that now you will eat animals?
Israel No, I will not.
Tatiana But why? Why would you not eat animals now?
Israel This has to be and will be built into the rules of Man.
Tatiana What else can you say about why you are not eating animals?
Israel There is nothing else to say.
I can give an example. When we go for a walk we often meet a boy one and a half years old. First, he was afraid of me. And then, one time when we met, he gave me his favorite car. This is all.
Tatiana I understand what you mean but how can one explain this to others? What is the relation to animals?
Israel This is part of the essence of life.
Tatiana Well, this is also not very clear. You see, it is very important to explain this to others. For example, in China, they currently produce fur, they skin live animals-cats, dogs, foxes. There are no ethical norms there. Besides, they dye this fur in purple and burgundy colors to make it look like artificial. This is totally absurd. And people do not stop to think, they buy it.
How can one explain to them that this is wrong? Please, share your thoughts about it.
Israel Because there is a missing link and it cannot be avoided.
Tatiana What missing link?
Israel I told you some time ago about a little girl who was excited about the geometrical construction of squares and a rhomb. One can look at two squares or one can see a rhomb.
Tatiana I do not understand. How is this relevant?
Israel Everyone is disregarding the possibility that there exists a rhomb.
Almost no one understands that it is missing. Rhomb cannot be expressed in the old terms, in terms of squares. This is the missing link. Very few mathematicians felt this… For example, Dedekind wrote a book: "What are Numbers and What Should Numbers be".
Tatiana Oh, I understand: in the construction there were two squares with sides equal to one-these are rational numbers, and the diagonals of these squares -i.e. sides of the rhomb, are irrational numbers. Dedekind was exactly the one who discovered irrational numbers.
Israel (Laughing) He has not discovered them. They always existed. And this is the essence!
Tatiana I think I started to understand the connection. The question itself -- why is it wrong to eat animals, is the wrong question, isn't it? It is formulated in the wrong language, in the "language of squares". This is, as you told me for the Kyoto Lecture, is a "non-adequate language". There must be another language-the "language of rhomb", or "irrational". And this language is missing.
Israel (Nodding) Yes. The question why is it wrong to eat animals cannot be answered in terms of squares.
Tatiana I have also understood that just as the irrational numbers always existed this other language also existed… Ah, it is clear now! - Even a one and a half year old boy can feel this language!
Israel Only few people understand this. Albert Einstein understood this well…
Tatiana By the way, he was also a vegetarian.
Israel By asking a question about vegetarianism we presuppose that one can avoid vegetarianism. But it is unavoidable!
Israel I do not understand only why the war started, the civil war…
Tatiana This was exactly why. Even starting from Pythagoras, 500 b.c. (we only know about Pythagoras!) many famous people understood this-Leonardo Da Vinci,
Albert Schweitzer, Albert Einstein, Milan Kundera, Bernard Show and others. They all said that as long as men will eat animals, people will kill each other.

VITA How did your students respond to your new point of view?
Israel I hope, positively.
VITA What difficulties did you encounter?
Israel I do not understand.
Tatiana I had difficulties when we became vegetarians. At every meal in a group of people I had to withstand a current of sarcastic remarks, strange looks or aggressive attacks and questions such as, "Why do you not eat meat?", "Do you have health problems?", "And why are you not concerned about people? Mankind has enough problems besides animals!"
Israel does not have such difficulties!
Nowadays, at least in the US, practically everyone knows the word "vegan", sometimes they ask to clarify it. Moreover, very often instead of former sarcasm and aggression people show their interest in this topic or even excuse themselves for not being vegan-"What do you eat then?", "Where do you buy food?", or "I tried being a vegan but failed", "I'd like to go vegan one day"… So the times are changing.
You know, this is like in a saying of Arthur Schopenhauer: "All truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third it is accepted as self-evident."
VITA Did you have resistance and arguments from doctors?
Tatiana Israel's physician, our friend, invited us sometimes to a holiday dinner where, of course, there was an abundance of food-all kinds of meat, eggs, cheese. Of course, the hostess was asking Israel to try her cooking. Israel asked very politely what was the plate made of, and if he did not like the ingredients he just repeated a short phrase: "I will not eat this". No comments, no arguments-- very simple.
VITA What was the effect of vegetarianism on your health?
Tatiana Israel's health benefited from vegetarianism despite the late transition - he was over 80 years old. Veganism had an even more positive effect on his health - Israel's previously high blood pressure became 120/70, pulse 65-70, some other previously unpleasant symptoms disappeared. This was puzzling to the medical personnel (unfortunately, Israel fell at the university due to a broken elevator and fractured his hip so that he had to become acquainted with the medical system). We had a difficult time explaining how it could be that at his age Israel is practically not taking any medications (except vitamins), and we had to leave a long list of medications in the questionnaire blank.
VITA Did vegetarianism (veganism) help you solve problems?
Israel Yes.
Tatiana I am appending an abstract from an article about Israel in New York Times in 2003: " 'I think I am able to work as well as I could 40 or 50 years ago', said Dr. Gelfand who attributes this productivity, in part, to a strict vegetarian diet, which he adopted along with his wife Tatiana, a decade ago."
VITA Were you familiar with the issue of cruel experiments [on animals]?
Israel Yes.
Tatiana (to Israel) Can you say what is your attitude in regards to animal experiments?
Israel (After a long pause, looking at our cat, Kisa, who is always next to him)
How can one cut Her open?! This is a sin!
VITA What methods do you think could have potential in replacing the experimental animals in different areas of biology?
Israel There are many such methods.
Tatiana As a person who worked at the Institute of Physiology and is interested in biology, I would like to share my opinion. First of all, one has to understand clearly what problem is being solved and what for. When studying at the university, I heard an anecdote about a professor of biology who is giving a talk about his 25-year long research: "I have discovered that the length of the path around an ant-hill is always approximately three times longer than the path through the ant-hill center."
And now seriously, here is the quote by Dr. Richard Klausner, the Director of the National Cancer Institute, "The history of cancer research has been a history of curing cancer in the mouse... We have cured mice of cancer for decades - and it simply didn't work in humans."
VITA We know that you played a role in the fate of a Russian student who was the first to refuse openly to participate in the animal experiments during the educational process.
Your opinion was at that time taken into account. What is your position about the freedom of choice for students for whom such experiments contradict their moral principles?
Israel I have deep respect for these students.
VITA One can often hear from defendants of animal experiments that even the use of human cell cultures does not allow simulation of the biological processes in organs. At the same time in medical and bio experiments they often use species of animals which have completely different anatomy and physiology than humans. How would you explain their contradiction?
Israel They do not have a point of view.
Tatiana And you? How to study biology?
Israel First of all, with clean hands.
Tatiana You do not mean this literally?
Israel Of course not.
Tatiana And second?
Israel Second, as well as first, - with clean hands.
VITA What is the difference between America and Russia in regards to their attitude towards animals?
Tatiana From my point of view, the main difference is that in Russia no one would even think about "proving" that animals feel pain and "do not like" to be killed. This is obvious even to a child, or especially to a child! The majority of people intentionally close their eyes to the fact that they participate (directly or indirectly, i.e. by paying someone else to do this dirty job) in the torture and slaughter of animals. In America, the common sense is somehow lost among the sets of rules and laws. Many people "are waiting to be proved" that animals feel pain and to be told what should they do as the consequence. But how can it be "proved" at all that a person who is writhing with pain is not pretending?
As far as I know, no one became a vegetarian after viewing any proofs about what is cruel and what is not. On the other hand, many people made an instant transition after they saw the eyes of animals that were being killed or even the eyes of animals that were being transported to a slaughterhouse.

VITA We would like to ask Tatiana a few questions.
How popular is vegetarianism in your surrounding in America?
Tatiana Practically anyone with whom I speak about this has some vegan relatives or friends. They say that among college students about 30% are vegetarians.
VITA Are there many vegans among scientists?
Tatiana I do not know whether attitude towards eating or not eating animals changes in scientists but I know that even people who grew up "on meat", like animal farmers, change their habits. One such farmer with a 40-year experience in farming, Howard Lyman, became known for his bestseller "The Mad Cowboy: Plain Truth from the Cattle Rancher that Won't Eat Meat". Currently he is not only a vegan but also actively appeals to the "sanity" of Mankind. I remember how he ended one of his presentations: "I imagine our grandchildren sitting on our laps and asking us: "Is this really true that you were eating animals?"
VITA And what are the choices for food products?
Tatiana There is vegan "sausage", vegan "ham", vegan "beef", vegan "chicken", egg substitute, and other vegan versions of these "common" food products. In our family, we feel that there is enough delicious and healthy food without animal products or their substitutes. We do not have a problem with food choices. Rather I have a problem due to the suddenly discovered abundance of vegan recipes-it is appealing to try them all.
VITA Did you have funny incidents related to vegetarianism?
Tatiana We had a funny story about tofu. The first one to buy tofu was Israel and he asked me to cook it. Gently speaking, I said that "I did not buy this jelly-fish and I am not going to cook it". The first package of tofu had to be thrown away after about 10 days. But Israel bought the second one. I will not tell you what my reaction was. In a few days, Israel did something with this tofu and, as I think, ate it. After this he was buying tofu regularly and fried it with onions and fresh pepper in soy sauce (which he also brought into our cuisine). The smells were so good that one day I asked to try his meal. It was very delicious. Since then I am grateful to Israel for the "tofu discovery" and I use it now in many recipes.
VITA And what is your everyday food? Your favorite products, dishes?
Tatiana Usually we start the day with a fruit shake. Don't know what can be more delicious than mango-soy milk shake ("lassie")! Israel likes to eat steamed vegetables, just "usual" cabbage, broccoli, carrot, eggplant, then brown rice (according to the Japanese teaching of Macrobiotics this is the most balanced food, i.e. it balances the energies of Yin and Yang); also soy dishes, beans. I prefer lots of raw salads and desserts. My special recipe is vegan "Tiramisu" for which I received compliments from native Italians.
These days I am fond of sprouts - they are very simple to grow and are very nutritious. From lentil, bean and other sprouts one can quickly make different meals - hummus, cutlets, or sprinkle them over other dishes. Russian women do not need to be taught the cooking creativity. And the satisfaction from such food will last for a day.
In fact, only when I became a vegan I felt for the first time that instead of the "always hungry" state there could be a state of pleasant satisfaction-i.e. when there is no desire to grab and chew something!
VITA Tatiana, tell us, please, about the theory of illnesses due to the body intoxication.
Tatiana I am afraid that I cannot say anything new, and I am not a biochemist; though I read a lot about these issues. This is something which is discussed all the time: over-acidity, free radicals, cell aging, cleansing… The point is that besides the body temperature there is another very essential parameter-acidity of the blood, more precisely, blood has to be slightly alkaline (pH=7.365). Many processes in the cells are based on the ion movement; therefore if the level of pH changes it can be equivalent to reducing the electric tension or even to "unplugging from the outlet". Thus, the body is trying to survive by any means-by "pushing" where it can the excessive acidity which could not have been excreted. Of course, the weak organs suffer the most - different ones in different people but the reason is in fact the same-over-acidity of the body. Some physicians and biologists think that even cancer develops due to the same reason.
Besides this, the body is trying to "hide" the excessive acidity by storing it in the fat cells. Therefore, when someone is quickly losing extra weight, acidity is released into the bloodstream, and one might experience symptoms of a mild intoxication.
Another way the body protects itself against serious threats from acidity is by building up cholesterol on the walls of blood vessels. Acidity can easily make holes in these walls thus creating an emergency. Therefore, the body has a mechanism to close the possible leakage. If more acidity comes into the blood, the built-up layer of cholesterol might leave no space in a vessel and block it.
The second important point is that all animal products are highly acidic while the majority of vegetables and non sweet fruit are alkaline or slightly acidic. Acidity is created in the body also due to stresses, polluted air, probably due to all modern way of living. Then it all goes like an avalanche. An acidic environment is perfect for many "creatures" - microbes, fungus, mold, etc., which in turn produce highly acidic "excrements". This does not sound very appealing! But the good news is that if the blood and body acidity levels are normalized all these creatures die and the cell processes return to normal. It is up to you to decide what to eat.
VITA Did you do any kind of sports? We know that you, Tatiana, bike.
Tatiana. As far as I know, Israel did not do any sports - he was busy with other things.
I did a lot of sport activities from childhood. Already at the age of 15-16 I noticed that if I did not eat any meat products, and ones with white flour, the following day, I could downhill ski the entire day - and at that time we had no lifts and we climbed the mountains with the skis and ski boots on! People were surprised by my stamina.
In order to break the myth that vegans are physically weak, I will mention that the double ultra-marathon winner is vegan. An ultra-marathon is a 135 mile race from Death Valley to California, often in temperatures of about 130F. It is considered one of the toughest races on earth. There are vegan athletes in other kinds of sports as well.

VITA Israel Moiseevich, and what is your attitude in regards to the other uses of animals: for fur, leather, for hunting, in circuses, zoos, animal fights?
Israel I stopped wearing leather shoes and belts; I simply got an aversion to them.
VITA And you, Tatiana?
Tatiana I just cannot look at the women in fur. I can only see what they are in reality-women covered by carcasses. There is no question about the beauty of this-rather I want to yell, "Look in the mirror, open your eyes!" Often I have a bitter feeling that long ago I myself was wearing small fur garments (luckily my life was too busy to care for fur). Now this feeling only helps me to appreciate more that my eyes as well as my heart, have opened.
VITA Do you think that mankind will arrive to a society based on respect for all life on this planet?
Israel I am an optimist and I believe that this is unavoidable. Please, ask Tanya to give you the saying of a Nobel Prize winner Isaac Bashevis Singer.
Tatiana "There will be no justice as long as man will stand with a knife or with a gun and destroy those who are weaker than he is."
VITA What, in your opinion, is the most effective way for the information about animal suffering to reach people (through articles, or media programs, or someone's personal experience)?
Israel (Laughing) All of the above.
Tatiana And I think there is no one "most effective" way. What do people like more-books, films or pictures? - It depends. Each person, I believe, has somewhere deep inside a kind heart; the person might not even know himself (or herself) how to reach it…
VITA Is the animal rights movement noticeable in the world?
Israel This movement is unavoidable. I am an optimist: in the battle between good and bad, the good cannot lose.
Tatiana Of course, it is noticeable. At the same time, those who made careers on the use of animals possess already large resources, while making a new path is always more difficult. This is why I realized that in the modern world good people no longer have the luxury of doing nothing: we all need to be active in the protection of our planet, nature, and animals.
VITA What is your opinion about the presentation at United Nations in December 2007 that animal farming is one of the main factors of destroying the environment which causes global warming? Is there such a threat?
Israel I am an optimist. Even though such a threat does exist, it cannot take over.
Tatiana In my opinion it is enough to look at the data. Each year the tropical forests are cut for animal farming at the rate of 125,000 square miles. Tropical forests are essential for the ecology and climate-they produce the main part of oxygen and consume a significant amount of CO2 on Earth. Beside this, global warming is caused by methane. According to materials of the International organization, Earth Save, methane has 20 times more green-house effects than CO2, and in quantity it grows faster than CO2. The main source of methane is animal farming and its waste - animal excrements. Enormous amounts of these excrements also cause another environmental threat. They contain a high level of nitrates, which are very dangerous for people. Nitrates get washed into the water, causing 99% of water pollution. Unfortunately, meat consumption continues to grow rapidly.
Isn't it easier to stop eating meat than trying to radically reduce our energy usage? Moreover, the first action is in the hands of every individual and is easily available at any moment.

VITA What would you like to wish to vegans?
Israel To remain vegans.
Tatiana To be an attractive example of a person who knows that he or she is on the right path.
VITA What would you like to wish to people who are not yet vegans?
Israel (Smiling) Humanity.
Tatiana (Laughing) Probably I have a guess what Israel means by this. May I comment? Israel liked very much the response of Mahatma Gandhi. A reporter asked him, "What do you think of Western Civilization?" Mahatma Gandhi said: "I think it would be a good idea!" My guess is that Israel's answer is from the same "series".
Tatiana (to Israel) Can you say in a different way what would you like to wish to non vegans?
Israel I will be very glad if my opinion presented in this interview will be useful to them.

© T.V. Gelfand, 2008.
This interview or any of its part cannot be reproduced, translated to another language or modified in any way without written permission from T.V. Gelfand.
With any questions, please, contact T.V. Gelfand at atatiana7@gmail.com




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